The Octopus Organization with Jana Werner & Phil Le-Brun

Back when I first worked with Jana Werner at Tesco Bank, I saw firsthand how a crisis could be a crucible for innovation and transformation. Her ability to unlock potential in even the most challenged teams was unforgettable. Now, teaming up with Phil Le-Brun—a transformational leader I came to know through his work at McDonald’s—they’ve co-authored The Octopus Organization, a guide for thriving in an age of continuous transformation.

In this episode, we go behind the scenes of their book and explore the anti-patterns that hold organizations back, the behaviors leaders must unlearn, and the mindset shifts required to succeed when change never stops. Whether you’re a CEO, change agent, or team lead, you’ll leave with small, actionable experiments to start evolving your organization—today.

Key TakeawaysUnlearning blame-based leadership: Shifting focus from fixing people to fixing systems unlocks performance and trust.Spotting anti-patterns in everyday behavior: Habits like jargon, silos, and avoidance subtly block progress.Embracing uncertainty in leadership: Probabilistic thinking builds better decisions and psychological safety.Driving transformation through small experiments: Distributed action outperforms top-down mandates.Leading with curiosity in the age of AI: Execs must actively engage with tech to stay relevant and credible.

Additional InsightsBehind the book: Why The Octopus Organization centers on 36 anti-patterns and how they uncovered themReal-world leadership stories: Lessons from Tesco Bank, McDonald’s, Amazon, and FerrariTransformation fatigue is real: Overengineered change efforts often create fear and resistanceAlignment breakdowns in leadership teams: Many transformations fail because leaders aren't truly on the same pageReframing performance: Asking “what did you stop doing” reveals deeper impact than traditional goals

Episode Highlights

00:00 – Episode Recap

Jana Werner shares how she took over a struggling tech team, discovered their true strengths, and transformed their performance by rebuilding culture and trust. Phil Le-Brun describes the importance of creating a culture of trust in organizations, allowing people to test ideas and make a real difference.

02:46 – Guest Introduction: Jana Werner & Phil Le-Brun

Barry O'Reilly introduces guests Jana Werner and Phil Le-Brun, describing their collaboration during times of crisis at Tesco Bank, their leadership backgrounds, and their shared vision for adaptive, purpose-driven organizations as captured in their new book.

04:36 – Revitalizing a Demotivated Team at Tesco Bank

Jana Werner narrates how she took over a demotivated technology team, overcame her initial preconceptions, and transformed the group into a top-performing unit by changing culture, empowering individuals, and shifting organizational dynamics.

07:07 – Lessons from McDonald's: Balancing Centralization and Agility

Phil Le-Brun explains McDonald's transformation journey, the need to unify local and corporate efforts, and the financial impact of building trust and alignment.

10:16 – Learning from Industry Leaders

Phil recounts interviews with CEOs like Indra Nooyi and Benedetto Vigna, highlighting that true leadership requires humility, storytelling, and ongoing curiosity.

14:14 – Unlearning the Need for Certainty

Jana Werner discusses shifting away from needing all the answers and embracing uncertainty, drawing on insights from Annie Duke and other leaders.

21:30 – Small Changes, Big Impact

Jana introduces the book's structure around "anti-patterns" and advocates for making small, distributed changes rather than massive, top-down transformations.

26:29 – Leadership Alignment: Avoiding Transformation Pitfalls

Phil highlights the need for alignment among leadership teams and points out common failures in transformation projects due to lack of shared understanding.

29:09 – Becoming "Technology Teenagers"

Phil and Jana emphasize the importance of leaders learning to experiment and engage directly with new technologies, encouraging curiosity and hands-on learning with AI.

32:12 – Start Small and Experiment

Both authors encourage listeners to pick a tip from the book and try it right away—emphasizing the value of experimentation, feedback, and removing old practices to spark growth.

Useful ResourcesJana Werner on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/janawerner1/ Phil Le-Brun on LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/phillebrun/ The Octopus Organization – Book by Jana Werner & Phil Le-Brun - https://www.amazon.com/Octopus-Organization-Thriving-Continuous-Transformation-ebook/dp/B0DRZ2MXBR Related episode: Accelerating Transformation in Crisis – Tesco Bank Case Study - https://barryoreilly.com/explore/articles/accelerating-transformation/ Amy Edmondson – Research on Psychological Safety - https://amycedmondson.com/psychological-safety/ Annie Duke – Thinking in Bets - https://www.annieduke.com/books/ Indra Nooyi – Leadership Insights - https://www.indranooyi.com/ 

Follow the Host

LinkedIn: Barry O’ReillyWebsite: barryoreilly.comTwitter/X: @barryoreillyInstagram: @barryoreillyFacebook: Barry O’Reilly

Unlearn

The way to think differently is to act differently and get comfortable with being uncomfortable. For business leaders, entrepreneurs, managers and anyone who wants to improve how they work and live: Welcome to the Unlearn Podcast. Host Barry O’Reilly, author of Unlearn and Lean Enterprise seeks to synthesize the superpowers of extraordinary individuals into actionable strategies you can use—to Think BIG, start small and learn fast, and find your edge with excellence.

• No. of episodes: 178
• Latest episode: 2026-04-01
• Business

Where can you listen?